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Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

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Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by lanunselat on Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:23 am

Soviet juga pernah cuba membangunkan pasukan carrier seperti mana yang dimiliki oleh US hari ini.

The debate over conventional, large-deck aircraft carriers should be familiar to even the most casual Western observer of defense matters. Its advocates claim that it is a priceless tool of power projection, offering matchless flexibility which cannot be achieved by any other means. Its critics argue that it is a pricey anachronism, a relic of outdated World War II thinking which offers little, if any, substantive advantage over lower-cost alternatives. These issues have time and time again been raised in the United States and in other Western countries, particularly in times of shrinking defense outlays.

What is not as clear to the casual observer is to what extent that very same debate took place within the Soviet Navy. The closed society that characterized the Soviet Union through most of its existence generally served to hide much of this discussion, which for the most part was limited to subtly worded sniping among high-level officers in the professional literature. Furthermore, the extremely high priority placed upon defense spending (the most recent, post-collapse estimates are truly astounding) seemed to run counter to the notion that budgetary debate would play any significant role in determining force structure. Yet, with the new transparency of Russian society, it is becoming increasingly clear that the debate over aircraft carriers is not unique to the West at all; indeed, it never has been.

The somewhat ironic conclusion is that despite the high-profile public controversy in the United States, this debate has had far less substantive impact on the USN's aircraft carrier program than the equivalent, silent clash of views has had on the Russian Navy's program. The USN got its fleet of supercarriers; the Soviet (and now the Russian) Navy was forced to accept a series of design compromises consistently falling short of Navy goals. Although there were the expected dissenters in Navy uniform, the final objective of the Russian Navy's carrier program was never meant to be the little Kievs. Today, even the vaunted Admiral Kuznetsov, though it does represent a monumental leap forward in Russian carrier aviation, is a rather anemic vessel when compared to the original design -- which was drafted over twenty years ago.

This short paper will trace the history of postwar Soviet and Russian "aircraft carriers", from the early Moskva-class helicopter carriers to the cancelled Ul'yanovsk nuclear-powered supercarrier. In light of the recent December 1995 deployment of the sole remaining Russian aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov, to the Mediterranean, a familiarity with the history of the program may help to dispel some of the rumors and misconceptions about Russian seagoing aviation.

A word on terminology: throughout this paper, the term "aircraft carrier" is used as a generic term. This reflects my personal preference for USN terms; in Russian usage, the correct form is "aviation cruiser", or "aircraft-carrying cruiser". The choice of wording is more than a semantic issue. According to the 1936 Montreaux Convention, passage of "aircraft carriers" through the Dardanelles is prohibited. This poses a rather serious problem for Soviet/Russian aircraft carriers, which traditionally have been constructed on the Black Sea -- and having all one's aircraft carriers bottled up in the Black Sea is of very marginal utility indeed. The choice of designation, therefore, had important diplomatic consequences.

There may also be another, more subtle reason for this choice of terminology. According to Soviet doctrine, aviation cruisers were intended not to serve as the centerpiece of naval strike capability (as the USN regards its own carriers), but as a supporting element for other naval operations. These included the concept of "pro-submarine warfare", in which surface task groups would seek to disrupt enemy ASW activity. This supporting role would seem to make a separate, "special" designation of "aircraft carrier" vaguely inappropriate.

http://128.121.102.226/rcar.html

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by mumuchi on Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:26 am

wa sebenarnya hairan gak, apasal si russian ni nak sangat tech transfer kelas mistral..bukan depa ada capabilities ka?

France agrees to transfer technology to Russia under proposed warship deal
France will transfer warship technology to Russia if a deal is agreed over DCNS-manufactured Mistral ships, French Prime Minister François Fillon said on 9 December. The announcement would appear to remove a major obstacle to a potential deal; the two sides have been locked in negotiations over the level of sophisticated technology Moscow would receive in any such agreement

[first posted to http://jdw.janes.com - 10 December 2010]

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by superhornet on Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:29 am

mumuchi wrote:wa sebenarnya hairan gak, apasal si russian ni nak sangat tech transfer kelas mistral..bukan depa ada capabilities ka?

France agrees to transfer technology to Russia under proposed warship deal
France will transfer warship technology to Russia if a deal is agreed over DCNS-manufactured Mistral ships, French Prime Minister François Fillon said on 9 December. The announcement would appear to remove a major obstacle to a potential deal; the two sides have been locked in negotiations over the level of sophisticated technology Moscow would receive in any such agreement

[first posted to http://jdw.janes.com - 10 December 2010]


Mungkin jugak dari teknologi yg diorang dapat dari projek nie diorang nak develop sesuatu yg lebih baik .. basic dah dapat so aper lagi lagipun ruskie nie terkenal dalam buat sesuatu diluar jangkaan ..

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by mumuchi on Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:45 am

tapi depa dah design flat top Ul'yanovsk nuclear-powered supercarrier. ...scrapped fasal funding tak ada aja lepas Soviet Union Break-up....entahler..




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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by marc_zman on Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:55 am

A word on terminology: throughout this paper, the term "aircraft carrier" is used as a generic term. This reflects my personal preference for USN terms; in Russian usage, the correct form is "aviation cruiser", or "aircraft-carrying cruiser". The choice of wording is more than a semantic issue. According to the 1936 Montreaux Convention, passage of "aircraft carriers" through the Dardanelles is prohibited. This poses a rather serious problem for Soviet/Russian aircraft carriers, which traditionally have been constructed on the Black Sea -- and having all one's aircraft carriers bottled up in the Black Sea is of very marginal utility indeed. The choice of designation, therefore, had important diplomatic consequences.

mungkin ini dapat membantu.. camna wa mau kata aaa.. semua carrier yg soviet/russia ada boleh bawak fighter sama ader konvensional tau VSTOL.. tapi kalu ikut itu 1936 Montreaux Convention, aircraft carrier tak dibenar lalu itu Dardanelles.. kat mana tu wa pun tak tau.. nanti wa check balik

so.. mungkin sekarang dia mau bangunkan helos carrier cam mistral class kot..

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by marc_zman on Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:15 am

Russian Navy Chief: Helo Carrier Search Could Expand

AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Published: 11 Sep 2009 09:19
MOSCOW - The Russian Navy may expand its search for a new helicopter-carrier to other NATO members, while still negotiating to buy one of France's latest Mistral-class vessels, its chief said Sept. 11.
Naval Commander-in-Chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotski, quoted by Russian news agencies, said, "I confirm that negotiations for the purchase of a Mistral are under way, but it is highly probable that tenders will be sought.
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"Several countries in the world possess similar technology, including in particular the Netherlands and Spain."
He added, "We will not only buy the helicopter-carrier but also the technology for building it."
Vysotsky said that a Mistral-type warship, which can carry 16 heavy helicopters, landing-craft and troops as well as acting as a command and control vessel, would greatly enhance the Russian Navy's fighting capacity.
"During the events of August 2008 [when Russia fought a brief war with Georgia], such a ship would have enabled the Russian Black Sea Fleet to have accomplished its mission in 40 minutes instead of 26 hours," he claimed.
The Russian armed forces chief of staff, Gen. Nikolai Makarov, said last month that Moscow planned to buy a Mistral in an unprecedented deal experts said reflected Kremlin efforts to accelerate military modernization.
Makarov also said Russia wanted to forge a deal with France on joint production of at least four or five ships of the same class.
He did not name a price, but the Russian government daily Rossiiskaya Gazeta reported earlier that one ship would cost 700 million euros ($995 million).
Makarov, an influential proponent in Russia of modernizing the country's conventional armed forces quickly through procurement from Western suppliers, admitted the military needs equipment that Russia cannot produce at present.
Since World War II, Russia has insisted on producing all military hardware for its own use and export, but it has been falling behind the West.
Pavel Felgenhauer, a noted Russian military analyst and commentator on defense issues, commenting on the deal last month, mentioned Georgia, the Crimea peninsula in Ukraine and the Baltic states as areas where the ship could be used effectively for landing special forces onshore and other operations.
All are ex-Soviet states who now belong to or wish to join NATO and have tense relations with Moscow.

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by mumuchi on Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:52 am

kalau nak buat LPH baik Dokdo aja..entahler tapi aset landing expeditionary dema memang kureng pun..tak silap ini paling besar waktu ni....itupun seketul aja..




Type 1174

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by dewafrost on Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:38 pm

itu ivan rogov tuuuuu

aku dulu masa forum cari penah ketengahkan pasal russian carrier ni, rata2 ramai yg terkujat, sebab memang kurang maklumat pasal program carrier soviet niii.... antara yg terselamt dan masih di gunakan ialah Kuznetsov....



asal dari Project 1143.5, ada dua sebenar nya niii, adik dia nama Varyag... 70% siap..... tapi kene hold, sebab fund....... tapi dah gadai kek china.... jap lagi dapek ler kita tgk carrier kedua.....

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by dewafrost on Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:54 pm



complete line drawing
dulu aku kumpul semer projek carrier soviet
semer line drawing....
ntah dah kemana hilang nyerrr

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by mumuchi on Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:57 pm

cari baliiiiikkkkkk! What a Face

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by dewafrost on Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:10 pm

sabar... satu2......

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by dewafrost on Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:01 am

ok kita sambung sikit lagii



yg ni nama nyer KIEV.....

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by superhornet on Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:04 am

Yang kena jual kek india tu aper nama eik ... ada gambor tak sebab masa kat forum cari tu ada sempat tgk jap pastu lepas masuk sini dah tak jumpa ..

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by mumuchi on Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:15 am

ini dia..Admiral Gorshkov ex-baku



lepas masuk RIN jadi INS Vikramaditya


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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by marc_zman on Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:48 am

carrier soviet @ russia ni fungsi dia lebih pada fleet defence.. sebab tu saiz dia molek2 jer.. tarak laaa macam itu bandar terapung USN..

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by dewafrost on Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:55 am

Admiral Gorshkov adalah ubahsuai dari Kiev class, masih lagi dalam proses pembikinan



plan view...



gambaran model asal...



line drawing...

untuk admiral gorshkov class niii, hanya menempat kan sejumlah 20 buah pesawat MiG-29K sahaja dan beberapa buah helikopter kamov...

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by superhornet on Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:38 am

mumuchi wrote:ini dia..Admiral Gorshkov ex-baku



lepas masuk RIN jadi INS Vikramaditya



Ooo nie dier tapi kalau tak silap projek tu masih lagi sangkut kan sebab tu USkalau tak silap ada ofer USS kitty Hawk kat india ( super carrier tu ) first time wa dengar US ofer kat negara luar tu sebab dah decom ..

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by yaminz on Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:45 am

dewafrost wrote:Admiral Gorshkov adalah ubahsuai dari Kiev class, masih lagi dalam proses pembikinan



plan view...



gambaran model asal...



line drawing...

untuk admiral gorshkov class niii, hanya menempat kan sejumlah 20 buah pesawat MiG-29K sahaja dan beberapa buah helikopter kamov...

owh, brapa byk russia wat conversion bro?

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by dewafrost on Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:33 am

tak banyak.... experiment ajerrr.... tapi kene hold, india amik, tuu ex Baku tuuu....
kalau ikut maklumat Baku dah 30% on the way, semer mender yg tak berkenaan dah di buang
tapi kene hold, tadak funding, pas tuuu India sambao.... tapii, kalau menjadik, maka utk seterusnyer just guna ajer lerrr design hull Kiev tuuuu, build dari ground zero, baru senang....

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by mumuchi on Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:53 am

superhornet wrote:
mumuchi wrote:ini dia..Admiral Gorshkov ex-baku



lepas masuk RIN jadi INS Vikramaditya



Ooo nie dier tapi kalau tak silap projek tu masih lagi sangkut kan sebab tu USkalau tak silap ada ofer USS kitty Hawk kat india ( super carrier tu ) first time wa dengar US ofer kat negara luar tu sebab dah decom ..

eden rasa paling kurang US pernah offer super carrier kat brazil utk buat ganti menais gerais tapi tak mampu, so sambo peranchis punya aja yg jadi sao paulo tu..

Going Brazilian, Navy style

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by dewafrost on Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:15 am

tak ramai negara yg mampu nak menjaga melayan floating city nii beb... dia punyer crew puun banyak level wooooo, nko buat ini, buat itu.... payahhh woooooo



sajer nak tunjuk perbandingan

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by mumuchi on Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:29 am

itu pasal kalau orang kita ke serantau nak bela, wa senyum aja..sorang jaga gajah putih tu pun dah jenuh...

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by dewafrost on Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:33 am

hahahahaaaaa..... tuuuuu ada gajah putih tuuu kek dlm gambaor akuuu tuuuu...... paling kiri sekali..... heheheeee

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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by escortburuk on Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:07 am

Russia Selects Warships From France

Paris – Russia has selected France's controversial offer of two Mistral command and projection warships, with an option for two more units, for an undisclosed amount, a French official statement said Dec. 24.

"The president of the Russian Federation Dimitri Medvedev has today informed the president of the French Republic Nicolas Sarkozy that following the international tender launched Oct. 5 for the supply to the Russian Navy of two command and projection ships, the Russian authorities have selected the offer presented by the consortium formed by French companies DCNS and STX and the OSK Russian shipyard," the French president's office said in a statement.

The sale of the 21,300 ton Mistral class of helicopter amphibious assault ship, worth around 500 million euros per unit, marks the first major sale of military equipment by a NATO country to Moscow. The prospect of a sale of the advanced design warship has raised deep concern with the U.S. administration and the Baltic states, following the 2008 war between Georgia and Russia.

French officials have deployed various arguments to justify a sale, including emphasizing the civil standards to which the ship was built and that it would be inconsistent to call Moscow a partner of the West and then refuse to sell the warship.

"President Medvedev and President Sarkozy welcome the realization of this unprecedented cooperation, which will benefit industry and employment in our two countries, and which illustrates the determination and capacity of France and Russia to develop large scale partnerships in all domains, including in defense and security."

The deal represented the equivalent of five million hours of work or employment for 1,000 workers for four years for the French companies DCNS and STX, with most the work at the Saint-Nazaire shipyard, northern France.

"DCNS is delighted the Russian authorities have chosen the Mistral," a company spokesman said.

U.S. defense secretary Robert Gates, when asked in February about the French offer of the Mistral to Moscow, said: "Yes, we did discuss it. We had a good and thorough exchange of views. I will leave it at that."

It was not clear where the ships will be built as the industrial details have not been finalized.

"The consortium's offer initially envisages the common construction of two ships of this type, which should be extended by the building of two more units," the statement said.

The Mistral is designed around modular blocks so it is possible large blocks could be prepared in France and sent for assembly in Russia.

The first of class Mistral and sister ship Tonnerre were assembled at Saint Nazaire after blocks were built at Brest and Saint Nazaire, with a Polish yard at Gdansk subcontracted to build some of the blocks.

French officials feared that if Paris refused to sell the ships, Russia would buy rival products from Spain or the Netherlands.

Russia has insisted on a transfer of technology and construction of some of the ships, while the French government wanted the first two ships to be built at Saint Nazaire, and the second two assembled in Russia.

France owns a stake in STX France, which is a subsidiary of the Korean STX group. Defense electronics company Thales holds a 25 percent stake in DCNS, with an option to raise this to 35 percent.

The Mistral is a highly automated warship, with a crew of 160. The 199-meter long ship is designed to embark a headquarters command staff, equipped with a hospital, can carry 16 helicopters, landing ships and accommodate around 450 troops.

The French government last year ordered a third Mistral vessel to be built under a 2.3 billion euro defense stimulus package.

(Defense News)


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Re: Soviet/Russia Carrier Development

Post by dewafrost on Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:28 am

braper bijik ruskie sambao niii??? 2 kerr 4 niii????

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